June 29, 2006

(joined in progress)

Jeff Katz, Host: ...regarding the Totalization Agreement between the United States and Mexico. I want to bring Shannon Benton into the conversation. Please introduce yourself to everyone and please tell us more about yourself. 

Shannon Benton: Well, I'm Shannon Benton and I'm Executive Director of TREA Senior Citizens League, a nonprofit organization that works diligently to protect the earned benefits of American citizens.

JK: Mmm hmmm. And you and your organization very concerned about this thing called a Totalization Agreement. Explain to all of us what that is.

SB: A Totalization Agreement is intended to eliminate dual taxation for people who work outside their country of origin. For example, let's say I work for Microsoft and Bill Gates wants me to work in England for the next ten years. With a Totalization Agreement in effect between the countries, I wouldn't have to pay Social Security taxes to both countries. So a Totalization Agreement can be good.

JK: Right. The problem, however, is that we're now hearing conversations about a Totalization Agreement between the United States and Mexico. Is that correct?

SB: Yes.

JK: So explain to us how that would impact us.

SB: A Totalization Agreement with Mexico would take money out of our Social Security Trust Fund, which of course Americans have contributed to for their retirement, and turn it over possibly to illegal immigrants under the Totalization Agreement. It would allow illegal immigrants in our country to claim work credits from both countries.

JK: Now let's be clear on something. The record keeping on the Mexican side of the border is, to put it nicely, substandard.

SB: Oh, yes, that's putting it very nicely.

JK: The other big problem, obviously, in addition to the fact that you would be benefiting illegal aliens, is that the retirement system in Mexico is very, very different from ours.

SB: It's incredibly different.

JK: I mean, they have a much lower rate of participation, do they not?

SB: Yes, and not everybody puts into Social Security in Mexico like they do here in the United States.

JK: Yeah, my understanding is that there's only 40 percent of the Mexican workers that actually participate as opposed to 96 percent of American workers.

SB: Exactly. In addition, the U.S. system is much more progressive, meaning lower wage earners get back much more than they put in. In Mexico, workers put in only what they put in plus accrued interest.

JK: I see. So it would be rather beneficial, to put it mildly, for those who come across the border to say, 'well, I've been working for x number of years in Mexico, I want those credits essentially transferred to the United States, and then stick around here long enough to receive these increased benefits and then take these back to Mexico.'

SB: Well, if my country of origin was Mexico, I would do that. Of course, I'm going to try to get the best deal I can.

JK: Tell me where we are on this agreement.

SB: Well, unfortunately, we have tried for over three years to get documents through the Freedom of Information Act from the State Department and Social Security [Administration]. We would like to see a copy of the Agreement – or the Agreement itself.

If hundreds or thousands more people are going to collect Social Security benefits, well, of course the costs will have to be borne by you, me, our children, probably in the form of reduced benefits. So after three years of asking, we had to get tough. So today, we filed two lawsuits, one against the Social Security Administration and one against the State Department to turn over the documents we have repeatedly been asking for.

JK: Now let me ask you, Shannon, when you have been making these Freedom of Information Act requests, have you received any response? Any acknowledgment?
 
SB: Yes, we did. Unfortunately, a government bureaucrat inked out most of it with his Sharpie, so most of the information we did receive, we couldn't read it or it was completely unrelated to our request.

JK: (laughter) Okay. So you got the proverbial redacted copy.

SB: Yes.

JK: Now, usually that's reserved for matters of national security or intelligence. And it would seem to me there's nothing you're asking for here that would involve and ongoing intelligence operation anywhere, am I right?

SB: No, we're not asking for the Kennedy assassination files.

JK: Right. So you got – how many pages did you get?

SB: I think in total we got 50-some pages.

JK: And of those, half of those "x'ed" out?

SB: More than half.

JK: (laughter) Jeez. You would have saved everyone the trouble, Shannon, if you just would have gone to a craft store and purchased 50 sheets of black construction paper.

SB: Absolutely. I'm sorry the government wasted their money on so many Sharpies.

JK: Alright. So here's where we are. You have 50 pages of absolutely useless material because of course they don't want you to see exactly what's involved there and now you've been forced to file a couple of lawsuits. What is your attorney telling you in terms of chances for success and a timeline.

SB: I think our attorney has learned through the years not to try and guess what we're going to get. We feel that we are in it for the long haul. We want to see a copy of the Agreement, where does the Agreement stand today. It's actually already been signed at a ceremony on June 29, 2004 by Jo Anne Barnhart, Social Security Commissioner and Dr. Santiago Algazi, Director General of the Mexican Social Security Institute.

What we're waiting for right now is for President Bush to sign it. He's already expressed his intent to sign it. And once he does sign it, which is done without a congressional vote – I think that's imperative for people to know – either House of the government would have 60 days to disapprove the Agreement by voting to reject it. If neither one of the Houses vote to reject it, it automatically goes into effect.

JK: Incredible. Well, Shannon, I appreciate you taking the time to be here. It's a very, very disturbing matter and we'll check in with you to see what kind of progress you're making.

END

July 2006